tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23674601.post130219786555478725..comments2023-09-04T06:22:48.564-05:00Comments on Craver VII: incredibleCraver Viihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12882284402568264182noreply@blogger.comBlogger29125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23674601.post-67025144621189651602007-06-12T21:32:00.000-05:002007-06-12T21:32:00.000-05:00Sorry, I didn't answer your question earlier, Crav...Sorry, I didn't answer your question earlier, Craver. Of course God could have kicked Jacob's butt badly. But I have always found the instances (especially in the Old Testament) where God seems to choose to listen (and even uses language like He is being swayed) by those who He chose to speak with.<BR/><BR/>Of course He is all powerful, but He somehow allows an element of choice and legitimate interaction (give and take) with us.<BR/><BR/>Make any sense?Staceyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17943429844411466571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23674601.post-39088513173519843052007-06-11T17:54:00.000-05:002007-06-11T17:54:00.000-05:00Thanks, Jazz. I'll check that out.Thanks, Jazz. I'll check that out.Craver Viihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12882284402568264182noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23674601.post-15751285427458986602007-06-11T17:31:00.000-05:002007-06-11T17:31:00.000-05:00Look on page 9........Look on page 9........jazzycathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16720471765591930568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23674601.post-32178856875625500832007-06-11T17:29:00.000-05:002007-06-11T17:29:00.000-05:00Craver,Here is the link to the priest/muslim.....h...Craver,<BR/>Here is the link to the priest/muslim.....<BR/><BR/>http://www.olympia.anglican.org/publications/Voice/June2007.pdfjazzycathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16720471765591930568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23674601.post-28157834836454579982007-06-11T16:58:00.000-05:002007-06-11T16:58:00.000-05:00Okay, okay, joke's on me. Don't rub it in. I did...Okay, okay, joke's on me. Don't rub it in. I didn't know that they were related in someway. I tried to make a joke . . . ha-ha on me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23674601.post-76722551786485093452007-06-11T16:42:00.000-05:002007-06-11T16:42:00.000-05:00Funny that you mention that, because (also from Wi...Funny that you mention that, because (also from Wikipedia):<BR/><BR/><I>"Hobbes in popular culture<BR/><BR/> * Hobbes, the tiger in Bill Watterson's comic strip Calvin and Hobbes, who often makes remarks on human nature, was named after Thomas Hobbes, while his companion Calvin was named after the Reformation theologian John Calvin."</I><BR/><BR/>So the tiger was not named after Arm<B>i</B>nius.<BR/><BR/>By the way, Arm<B>e</B>nians are an ethnic group. I still occasionally get the spelling confused.Craver Viihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12882284402568264182noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23674601.post-74057971640156091942007-06-11T16:10:00.000-05:002007-06-11T16:10:00.000-05:00Craver,Thanks for your second time giving that par...Craver,<BR/>Thanks for your second time giving that particular link for the 5 points. That one hooked me up. <BR/><BR/>Calvinism vs. Armenian, very interesting. So you're a 5 pointer?<BR/><BR/>A good one to journal about.<BR/><BR/>Hey, wait a minute, Calvinism & Armenian, isn't that the comic book about the little boy and his stuffed animal?<BR/><BR/>;-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23674601.post-75494653671936875852007-06-11T15:13:00.000-05:002007-06-11T15:13:00.000-05:00What can I say, Martin? This is a topic that I lo...What can I say, <B>Martin?</B> This is a topic that I love to go deep into. And if you figure out <I>how</I> to stop the world, don't do it. There's this whole thing about gravity and centrifugal force and momentum that would cause an even worse mess, should the world come to a sudden stop. But then, there was that <A HREF="http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v19/i3/longday.asp" REL="nofollow">one time</A>...<BR/><BR/><B>Stacey,</B> you don't really believe God <I>couldn't</I> beat Jacob in a wrestling match, do you?<BR/><BR/><B>JJ,</B> sorry if the <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_points_of_calvinism" REL="nofollow">five points</A> link didn't work for you. Try this. Go to Wikipedia, and search "five points of Calvinism." Maybe I'll do a little more on this later.<BR/><BR/>Hmmm... a Christian (priest--no less) and Muslim... simultaneously. What is this??? <B>Jazzycat,</B> would you provide a link for this?Craver Viihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12882284402568264182noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23674601.post-35592803599813572242007-06-11T14:03:00.000-05:002007-06-11T14:03:00.000-05:00I have tried going on the link you posted for 5-po...I have tried going on the link you posted for 5-points but it wasn't coming up and Eve said that she was probably a 3 or 4 out of 5...? I don't quite understand and I wouldn't know where to begin to look this one up.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23674601.post-51285783482508180812007-06-11T13:32:00.000-05:002007-06-11T13:32:00.000-05:00Mark, did you really grow up Armenian? For some re...Mark, did you really grow up Armenian? For some reason, I thought you were a German guy. :) (Could it be those suspenders?)L.L. Barkathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13333960142447144678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23674601.post-56235963643227231682007-06-11T07:34:00.000-05:002007-06-11T07:34:00.000-05:00Have you heard about the Episcopal priest that has...Have you heard about the Episcopal priest that has become a Muslim as well. She has not renounced Christianity. She considers herself a Christian and a Muslim. Go to Doxobology for details.jazzycathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16720471765591930568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23674601.post-72231680611859771062007-06-11T04:25:00.000-05:002007-06-11T04:25:00.000-05:00I wish we could rewind a few decades before this p...I wish we could rewind a few decades before this politically correct mumbo jumbo etc came on the scene .. "stop the world I want to get off!"Martin Sticklandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06988964235131249090noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23674601.post-54512184211825143492007-06-10T14:27:00.000-05:002007-06-10T14:27:00.000-05:00Jesus was/is flesh and blood-but God as well. I fi...Jesus was/is flesh and blood-but God as well. I find <I>that</I> even more complicated!*grin*Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15185060505158684073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23674601.post-27339170420946913372007-06-09T15:33:00.000-05:002007-06-09T15:33:00.000-05:00Interesting post and interesting comments. I grew ...Interesting post and interesting comments. I grew up Armenian. But I like a lot of what Calvin said, too.<BR/><BR/>My favorite theologian? Chaucer--especially the ideas somewhere between the Knight's Tale and the Miller's Tale. (That movie The Knight's Tale is not at all like the story, by the way.)<BR/><BR/>The way I figure it, my brain is too little to understand the implications of God's omnipotence and omnipresence and general omni-ness.<BR/><BR/>Don't get me wrong. It's fun to think about. But I doubt I can really describe or understand those big big aspects of God in any way that is worthwhile.<BR/><BR/>Jesus, on the other hand, was flesh and blood. That I can think about.<BR/><BR/>(None of that is supposed to be any kind of attack on people who like to think about those things. I'm just not particularly good at it.)<BR/><BR/>Or maybe I'm too sleepy on this Saturday afternoon.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23674601.post-52083097716912319072007-06-09T10:10:00.000-05:002007-06-09T10:10:00.000-05:00I have to agree with you, Craver, on this point (a...I have to agree with you, Craver, on this point (and maybe on a few others, but we'll see...:)<BR/><BR/>God cannot do anything against His will. His will is perfect and how can He do otherwise?<BR/><BR/>Craver, I'm not sure exactly where I stand on the 5 points. I'm probably 3/4 there.<BR/><BR/>My hang-up is that, though I believe Salvation is primarily a God thing, that He has also commanded man to have faith, to believe, to repent, etc.<BR/><BR/>So, even though we were born in trespasses and sins (spiritually dead), once He gives us eyes to see and ears to hear Him, we then have a responsibility to respond-though He gives us even the capability to do so. :)<BR/><BR/> I just can't find that fine line between man's responsibility and God's enabling. Perhaps I never will. I just know that the two sides exist, though it really is all God's doing...This could go on for days :)<BR/><BR/>Okay, that was real long....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23674601.post-50690397426226144202007-06-09T08:11:00.000-05:002007-06-09T08:11:00.000-05:00"But what I think he means is, can the omnipotent ..."But what I think he means is, can the omnipotent and omniscient creator be vulnerable <BR/>against His will to his creation? I don't see how that is possible."<BR/><BR/>Yes, because He, Himself, is the only one who has the power to both lay down His entire life and then to pick it up again - and willingly took the form of a bondservant - perhaps the author of this book never read Phil 2.<BR/><BR/>Now, about those 5 points, could they at least be listed for real? I would be interested to see what they are just because 1) I may never have thought through it 2)may be less Armenian than previously supposed 3) am lazy and don't want to look them up myself<BR/><BR/>Will miss you guys tomorrow - off to Oregon for a few days of business.Halfmomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06335655101343184062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23674601.post-24228390097740223782007-06-08T22:51:00.000-05:002007-06-08T22:51:00.000-05:00Hey, so glad you can still be friends with people ...Hey, so glad you can still be friends with people who don't adhere to five point Calvinism ;)<BR/><BR/>And as far as vulnerable to his creation, what about all the old testament examples of Yahweh and people like Abraham in Genesis 18:23-32, or Moses, or Jacob in Genesis 32:23-25. I'm not saying that God didn't already know the ultimate outcomes but he at least talked through the misconceptions - engaged in the conversations ...was "vulnerable" to the needs of those he loved.<BR/><BR/>(maybe I'm not saying anything different than you are but your question made me think of these examples)Staceyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17943429844411466571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23674601.post-27847898319582540332007-06-08T20:15:00.000-05:002007-06-08T20:15:00.000-05:00Still not understanding but that's okay. I'll che...Still not understanding but that's okay. I'll check into it later.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23674601.post-66293146014362485272007-06-08T18:27:00.000-05:002007-06-08T18:27:00.000-05:00Thanks for asking, Just Journaling! Since I don't...Thanks for asking, <B>Just Journaling</B>! Since I don't know when Jen2 will revisit, I hope she doesn't mind that I field this one. She was referring to the <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_points_of_calvinism" REL="nofollow">five points</A> of Calvinism.<BR/><BR/>Not every one who calls themselves Calvinists will adhere to all five points, but I do. And while I strongly believe these tenets, I do not wish to use this blog as a sieve to screen out those who do not hold the same views.<BR/><BR/>Whoa, it's late; gotta go. Maybe I can find a neighbor who owns hamsters and wants to save money on litter.Craver Viihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12882284402568264182noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23674601.post-90326309757494277092007-06-08T18:03:00.000-05:002007-06-08T18:03:00.000-05:00Welcome MamaToo! Thanks for leaving a comment.Tha...Welcome <B>MamaToo</B>! Thanks for leaving a comment.<BR/><BR/>That was gracious of you, that you gave the author the benefit of the doubt. The author is explaining a position that I'm still trying to determine whether to call it heresy or just bad theology. The "endorsements" in the back of the book... well, I wouldn't buy any of <I>their</I> books. He had just summed up the more orthodox, or traditional, or approved "Calvinist" position (not his own) and then went on to explain its flaws, so that the reader might be swayed to this new theological position. That is the context. Hamster bedding!<BR/><BR/>For the record, his position was not Arminianism. I can be friends with Arminians, even though we disagree strongly on some things we consider to be very important. As for this man, if he were giving a talk somewhere, I would walk out.<BR/><BR/>That's heavy, I know. Things are usually much ligher here.Craver Viihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12882284402568264182noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23674601.post-70562869756684757562007-06-08T17:29:00.000-05:002007-06-08T17:29:00.000-05:00jen2, What's a 5 pointer?jen2, <BR/><BR/>What's a 5 pointer?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23674601.post-81120823621646935792007-06-08T17:01:00.000-05:002007-06-08T17:01:00.000-05:00yikes... that was too long for comments! Sorry.yikes... that was too long for comments! Sorry.MamaToohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06760332814120372480noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23674601.post-13242042093134876922007-06-08T16:59:00.000-05:002007-06-08T16:59:00.000-05:00okay, perhaps everyone is right and the warm Frida...okay, perhaps everyone is right and the warm Friday-ness of this afternoon has eaten my brain... :)<BR/><BR/>I'm hoping the <I>context</I> of these comments, not just the phrases themselves, struck you as bad theology? They seem like harmless, maybe even thought-provoking questions of awe.<BR/><BR/>I feel like he speaks (in these comments you mentioned) of the audacious authority of God. It isn't a bad thing (in my opinion), nor lacking fear of the Lord, to note that God has not asked, nor need, our consent when He calls us to Himself. Grace demonstrates His desire to be glorified and worshipped. While we try to make Him all about us, He remains all about God. <BR/><BR/>That grace is shown to us prior to our own acknowlegement and receipt is the mystery of "coming to faith." (On this, I recommend reading some of Charles' Spurgeon's sermons on the Holy Spirit.)<BR/><BR/>Also, <I>"can He in any way be vulnerable to his creation?" </I> doesn't seem to be a harmful reflection: God <B>chose</B> to make himself vulnerable in His Christ. I think we see true faith exercised by Jesus, in "being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see." (Heb 11.1) Christ, the "author and perfecter of our faith" (Heb 12:2), lived with perfect certainty and unfettered belief.<BR/><BR/>Another way God makes Himself vulnerable is through His word. His perfect and holy will is only revealed to us through words that are often misquoted, misused, and misunderstood. This is indeed vulnerable, and seems to prompt our awe that He would choose this way of instructing us. <BR/><BR/>Maybe the author was not awestruck in the context of these comments. (I haven't read the book.) However, is there possibly more fear, wonder, and amazement there than at first glance?MamaToohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06760332814120372480noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23674601.post-81096075917187870722007-06-08T16:14:00.000-05:002007-06-08T16:14:00.000-05:00Less peanut buttery too.Less peanut buttery too.L.L. Barkathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13333960142447144678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23674601.post-57736065047484744892007-06-08T14:24:00.000-05:002007-06-08T14:24:00.000-05:00Good point, LL. (This post was less flirtatious t...Good point, <B>LL.</B> (This post was less <A HREF="http://seedlingsinstone.blogspot.com/2007/06/flirtatious.html#links" REL="nofollow">flirtatious</A> than usual, eh?) How about if I rephrased it this way?<BR/><BR/><I>Was Jesus vulnerable to the will of his creation?</I><BR/><BR/>Jesus prayed, “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will.” <A HREF="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Mt.+26%3A39" REL="nofollow">(Mt. 26:39)</A><BR/><BR/>I confess <B>J2,</B> *deeply bowing* guilty as charged. :-)<BR/><BR/><B>ESI,</B> your comment is a breath of fresh air, because you properly used the word "arrogance." I have heard too many man-centered theologians use that word for someone who's <I>confidence in God</I> is unshakeable.<BR/><BR/>I would be more inclined to give the book's details if I had a favorable review.<BR/><BR/><B>AMM,</B> I don't think I have ever burned a book before. But if I had hamsters, I might give it to them, and let them chew the pages for bedding. ;-)Craver Viihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12882284402568264182noreply@blogger.com